While I was away on retreat, there was a discussion on that homeschooling forum about the meaning of Holy Communion in the protestant tradition (generally speaking) and in the Catholic Church. As usual in these sorts of conversations, the idea that Catholics believed that Holy Communion in the Catholic Church was met with understandable umbrage. How dare Catholics imply that Holy Communion wasn't as meaningful to them as it was to us? By the time I got home it was too late for me to jump into the thick of things but I did have some thoughts. Imagine that. You may wipe the stunned look off your face now.
I will not take the time here to cover any of the reasons why Catholics believe in what we call the Real Presence, or that we believe that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. If you want to read what I've already said about that you might try my posts here and here. What I want to address is what it is that Catholics are being asked to deny when we are asked (for the sake of getting along don't you know) to just admit that it's really just a matter of personal preference or perspective and it just matters that we remember Jesus in our own way.
Let me try to explain briefly. First, the key to understanding what Catholics believe about Holy Communion is to look at the root of what we believe about Sacraments in general and in particular about marriage. Yes. Marriage. First, being "created in the image of God" means that our bodies and relationships can help to teach us about God. The eternal total self-giving, life-giving relationship of God the Father to God the Son, that is so total that they are ONE and from that relationship of love and self-giving springs the Holy Spirit and though they are three, they are still one is reflected in our marriages (obviously in a physical, imperfect way) and through our marriages into our families. "That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body" Genesis 2:24 Marriage is how Jesus describes his relationship to His Church. The Church is His Bride. He desires us and union with us (mystically) as a bridegroom desires his bride. Our marriage is a covenantal relationship that reflects the covenantal relationship that Jesus has with His Bride and it is not hyperbole, nor is it any sort of attempt to be profane when I say that it is the act of marital love that unites husband and wife in the covenant of marriage parallels that of the total self-giving, life-giving embrace of Christ to us in the Eucharist. Just as husband and wife should be totally present to each other and completely open to one another in the marital embrace, Jesus is totally present to us in the Eucharist and at the cost of His Life.
Holy Communion may be every bit as meaningful to me as it is to any devout Protestant, but Holy Communion is not a matter of feelings, but I contend that our relationship with God should be based on something far more stable that simply how we feel about it and how meaningful it is to us. I will absolutely admit that we can reject the the Graces that Jesus makes available to us in the Eucharist, we can be indifferent to them but our failure to recognize what Our Lord has made available to us and open ourselves to it does not change Who is present to us. He is Present whether we give of ourselves in return and open ourselves to Him.
How can a devout Catholic then say that the actual presence of Jesus in this life-giving embrace vs a symbolic remembrance is really all the same? You say tom-MAY-to, I say to-MAH-to….we all just love Jesus. It may be true that we do all love Jesus, but my remembering Jesus in a symbolic ceremony vs having Him totally present to His Bride is not the same at all. You may feel free to believe that Catholics are wrong to think so, but we cannot say it's all the same without literally denying everything we believe in.
19 responses so far ↓
1 Sal // Aug 18, 2008 at 9:24 am
Ah, she’s back in form!
Excellent- the Internet Monk, who I read with interest, is death on our claim of “the Real Presence”. He considers it the worst kind of elitism, but he also takes Protestants who don’t see the Eucharist as more than a memorial to task as well.
The dilemma of telling the truth graciously- God help us…
2 Sister Spitfire // Aug 25, 2008 at 8:43 pm
Thanks Sal! I suppose if we are wrong about the “Real Presence” it is the worst kind of elitism, but given what the RCC teaches the alternatives are clear. Be elitist or deny what makes you Catholic and the heart and soul of our faith.
You are right. All we can do is attempt to speak the Truth in love.
3 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Man I come back after 4 hours and read this stuff and you guys are a gang of goofballs that don’t know your Bible TRUTH from a hole in the wall. The Lord needs to take you to school for some Bible training so you don’t get lost. See what manmade religion does to the human mind? You all need to be RE-NEWED and REFRESHED in the Spirit of Gods. He’ll do the work and you’ll be made new just like His Word says. No Catholic dipping in the water crap or any of that BS New Age stuff either a real encounter with the living God and His Son. You’ll get changed and don’t do just a churchy thing but go for a real life like the New Testament says and you’ll dig it. I promise. The DH for the JC. You guys are grate.
4 Sister Spitfire // Sep 28, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Don, if you have a substantive rebuttal I’d love to hear it. Name-calling on the other hand is a poor excuse for actual thought nor is it likely to win anything other than accolades from those who “think” like yourself. If you are interested in “saving my soul” you’ll have to do better than calling me a goofball or telling me that I don’t know my Bible.
5 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:00 pm
The JOY of a personal relationship with the Lord has been denied you due to the Catholic organization they have slipped in-between you and God the Father. Such a DRAG. I am here because I love you and care. Jesus came so you could have an intimate relation with the CRATOR of all the UNIVER is that heavy or what? Think it over it is so sweet and lovely and you have been robbed of something that you can have. A close and personal relationship not institutional. No jumping through woops but personal and one-on-one just like He intended and desires and in fact Jesus shows us in the NT our GOD demonstrates. That is so far-out I love it. Makes for an intimacy that you where not ready for. Right?
6 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I am sorry Miss I will not name call. I will be nice forgive me and may I start over?
7 Sister Spitfire // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:08 pm
You are forgiven. However, I still have seen nothing of substance in your rebuttal. I have a close personal and intimate realationship with my Savior. I meet my Lord Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity at every Mass. I mystically enter into the eternal worship of the Lamb of God present in heaven. I am the Beloved of Christ, His Bride just as spoken of in the Song of Songs.
I was robbed of part of the Bible as a Protestant. Do you realize that the Catholics did not add books….the reformers REMOVED them. As a Protestant I was robbed of eating truly of the Tree of Life (Jesus being that fruit) in exchange for some weak symbolic encounter. I do not jumps through hoops to meet my Savior I fall flat on my face in worship of Him.
8 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:09 pm
I did mean hoops not woops what is that. Must be the drugs. What’s a man to do? However the RCC has not served you well. It’s hard challenge those feels and your family and I know how afraid you must feel with all those guys that make you think all is ok.
9 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Now the only way you can be saved from the punishment which you deserve because of your sins is to trust the Lord Jesus Christ as your Saviour. The wages which sin pays is death, “But the gift of God eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” Romans 6:23. Only through the Lord,” Romans 6:23. Only through the Lord Jesus can you obtain forgiveness for your sins. “Jesus saith, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” John 14:6.
Matt. 3:17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
AND
Matt. 11:27 All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
That opens the door to any person they desire to take that action. No special fella’ the Pope guy that talks funny all dressed up funny that talks funny. Yes yes real persons that they would like to reveal to. That is you and I guys and girls. Why is that so hard to believe?
10 Sister Spitfire // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:29 pm
Well Don you are in luck. The Catholic Church believe and teaches everything you just posted there so you can relax about my soul and where it will go “if I should die tonight.”
You might do well to discover what it is that the Pope does other than “dress funny” and “talk funny”, because no Catholic that I know of confuses the Benedict XVI (or any of his predescessors) with Our Lord.
11 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Yes I understand your going to purchase the RCC story because you desire to. You now find that easy to do. Change is not so easy. The rituals are also easy. You need to come to grips with “WHAT IS BORN AGAIN”? God’s Word teaches this and says WE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. It’s so hard to change and to be challenged. The WORD is there to read start with John 3:16 even. We can start together somewhere. The numbers are there the Catholics are dropping like fly’s. Why is that? Last we found out was you are beginning to learn and come to the dark side. Really come to the LIGHT.
12 Anne // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Been there, done that Don… and there is no comparison between the Protestant churches of my youth and the depth of the Faith and the incredible growth in my personal relationship with Our Lord that I’ve found in the Catholic Church.
Catholic baptism isn’t always dipping… my daughter was immersed thank you very much and baptism is hardly ‘new agey’ stuff.
Bible? We are immersed in it. No shrimpy half hour quiet time for Catholics, we are talking an hour minimum of formal prayer per day, 99% of that from scripture. That isn’t even adding on other personal devotions such as meditations on the life of Christ that we may choose to do, or the practice of His presence and praying without ceasing which we continually strive to maintain out of our love for Him. Even as a devout Baptist at church and Bible study multiple times a week I was never this immersed in sacred scripture.
What you call hoops, I call a step-ladder that helps me where I am weak so that I can draw ever closer to the Lord I love.
What you call ‘a churchy thing’ I call entering into the very worship of Heaven.
You say we need to trust Jesus as our savior, I tell you we have left the bloody door of the passover far behind and are well into the journey following our Lord to the promised land.
13 Anne // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Don, I’m so laughing here… not at you, but at the whole idea that we ‘bought the RCC story because we wanted to’. Change is not so easy? You have NO IDEA! Sister Spitfire and I were both Protestants, thank you very much, and very happy, confident, assured Protestants, certain that we were right. I became Catholic because God made me, insisted, made it clear that to follow Him this is where I must go. I was not in the LEAST interested in becoming Catholic. The change WAS hard… but what God has given in return has made all the struggles and sacrifices worth while. That seems to be the way it always is with Him.
Remember, even the darkness is light to Him…
14 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Yes I understand your going to purchase the RCC story because you desire to. You now find that easy to do. Change is not so easy. The rituals are also easy. You need to come to grips with “WHAT IS BORN AGAIN”? God’s Word teaches this and says WE MUST BE BORN AGAIN. It’s so hard to change and to be challenged. The WORD is there to read start with John 3:16 even. We can start together somewhere. The numbers are there the Catholics are dropping like fly’s. Why is that? Last we found out was you are beginning to learn and come to the dark side. Really come to the LIGHT.
Sister HONEY no need to be on the defense common ground is the WORD without the added stuff. Just the GOOD NEWS. How would you lead a person to SALVATION? That’s right if we walked with John for example how did he lead a person to eternal life? The same works for us today. No added attractions. Nothing has changed the work of the Lord has not changed and the power of the cross is the same. Cool and why do we have guys making claims that they are or where special and changed Gods Truth? That is a bad thing and not good.
15 Sister Spitfire // Sep 28, 2008 at 6:59 pm
Don, before I answer you question about John I’d like to know which John you are talking about. John the Baptist or John the Apostle?
16 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Anne you don’t amaze me you were at one time doing one thing and now going to the Catholic Club. Humans like to be members and have motives of all reasons. Now our comfort level and lift and who we are married to make all the difference. But you are accountable and need to read the WORD and don’t go on automatic hoping all will be ok. Please just take time every day between hubby and the kids and pick up God’s Word and you’ll find Truth. Now for whatever reason the lovely Catholics I know seem to like this run on Auto mode. But you and I will be held accountable. I care for ya really I do.
17 Don H // Sep 28, 2008 at 7:13 pm
No no John the Apostle. The cut poor John the Baptist Head off. What will we do? Good thing we don’t have Kings anymore. That was a bloody time wasn’t it?
18 Sister Spitfire // Sep 28, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Don, I am sure you don’t mean to condescending but I must tell you that you aren’t making a lot of points here. Do you really believe that every Catholic since the advent of the “reformation” remained Catholic or converted to Catholicism simply because we “desired to purchase the Catholic story”? Or because we like the “Catholic Club”? Or simply because it was “comfortable”? I tell you honestly, if I wanted “comfortable” I’d be at Joel Osteen’s church in a Houston minute. He’s just up the road a piece.
I agree that we are accountable. Have you read anything on my blog that suggests otherwise? What have you read on my blog that indicates that I am not familiar with my Bible?
I assure you that I spend over an hour a day praying with Sacred Scripture. Yep…that’s right over an hour. The more I read, the more I realize how very wrong I was as a Protestant.
19 Sister Spitfire // Sep 28, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Ok Don, just because you seem to want to “liberate” me so much I’ve re-posted about the Catholic Mass. You see if you’d like to convert me, and I’m more than willing to listen to you, you are going to need to confront what I actually believe as a Catholic and not what you think I believe. This post should get you started:
http://catholicspitfiregrill.com/2008/09/28/what-you-really-need-is-an-intimate-relationship-with-jesus/
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